Shirley, J. Dallas: Oral History, August 23, 1989
From GWUEncyc
Article
J. Dallas Shirley (1913-1994) graduated from George Washington University in 1936, where he was a member of the basketball team. He received a Distinguished Alumni Achievement award from GW in 1981, and was elected to the Basketball Hall of Fame in 1980.
The following oral history of Dallas Shirley was done August 23, 1989 by Lee Bielski for The George Washington Oral History Program:
BIELSKI: Today is August 23, [1989] and the gentleman who is being interviewed is Dallas Shirley, and the lady who is interviewing him is Lee Bielski. Mr. Shirley, when I think of you and we’ve known each other a great number of years, I think of you as “Mr. Basketball.” Now tell me, did you ever play yourself?
SHIRLEY: Lee, I think you’re right. I like to be remembered as “Mr. Basketball” but however I must also admit that my basic and primary interest is, I’m an educator. As you well know I was in education at Gordon Junior High School in the Washington public school system for thirty-two years. I did play basketball. I went to Eastern High School in Washington, and I was fortunate enough to be able to play consistently there, that Len Walch, who later became a judge in the District of Columbia offered me a scholarship to come to George Washington University to play basketball, which I did in 1931 through 1935.
BIELSKI: Well, then another thing of course, or the big thing in my mind that I associate with Dallas Shirley is your refereeing. Tell me, now don’t leave out, that you refereed for the Olympics, and so forth. Tell me the things that you remember and you are proud of in your career as a referee.
SHIRLEY: Well I had the opportunity of officiating for thirty-two years and following that I became a supervisor of basketball and football officials in the Southern Conference for twenty-two years. So I’ve been closely connected with the game for over fifty years. I guess the outstanding thrill of my officiating was twofold. Number one, I was the only United States official to work in the 1960 games in Rome, Italy, when I think we, the United States, had our best team ever, then secondly in 1979 I was inducted as one of eleven basketball officials. The sad part there as I look at it is that eleven have been inducted, eight of them have passed on. I hope they’re not trying to tell me something. But those two highlights are of my career in basketball officiating.
BIELSKI: I know you have seen more basketball games than any other person alive in the United States. So maybe this isn’t a fair question. But think a minute and tell me. What was the, probably the most exciting, the most rewarding, the most memorable basketball game that you ever saw connected with George Washington University?
SHIRLEY: Well of course you know there was a time when George Washington University was not very strong in basketball. I had the opportunity participating in ’31 to ’35 at which time we really did have very very few victories. There were some good ball players of course that came out of there at that time. Probably one of the better ones, and came and coached later, was Arthur “Otts” Zahn. Also of course at that time we had [Alphonse] “Tuffy” Leemans who was noted for his football ability, but he too was a member of the teams of that era, and then followed by Red Auerbach who coached the Celtics for so long and is a resident here of Washington, D.C. I don’t think of any one particular game at George Washington at which I participated. However, when you come down the road years later I think the victories we had against Maryland University when [Charles] "Lefty" Driesell was there and when we beat Georgetown, those were always sweet, particularly I think when you beat the teams in your own local area.
BIELSKI: I know also that you have, as a referee, as an official, that you have seen many basketball players, that you have been impressed by many of them, but could you pick out the basketball player from George Washington University that you think maybe was your ideal.
SHIRLEY: Well again, I think to be repetitious, I think there was not probably a better basketball player than Otts Zahn, and then of course you have to remember George Garber, who was an outstanding ball player, and then of course we have induced Joe Hollup into the George Washington University Sports Hall of Fame. So I think those three people stand out as vividly in my mind at this time as any of the others who participate along the road.
BIELSKI: When I say the two words, Tin Tabernacle, tell me everything that you associate with that. We’ll play a little game of psychology here.
SHIRLEY: Of course the Tin Tabernacle is symbolic with George Washington University on their campus, which is better known as a yard. It brings back many many fond memories. We played, we tried to dress, we tried to work out and everything in the Tin Tabernacle, which really was two words, was clearly an eye sore to the campus. But we had nothing else. It was so bad in fact that for a long period of time during that four year span, we played at the old Riverside stadium down near the Heurich Brewery, we played at McKinley Tech, we played around town because there was just no seating capacity at the Tin Tabernacle at all. The walls were very close in. You had very little room at either side or either end. You did have no seating capacity, and the dressing rooms were abominable, but again in those days you had very little to compare with. In those days it was not as bad as it sounds today. Of course today with the big arenas that we have throughout the country it was just an eyesore and just unbelievable. But at that time it really wasn’t that bad and the sweat (??), the fun, the sorrows that we had in the Tin Tabernacle I’m sure will be remembered by most all of us for a long long time.
BIELSKI: Dallas, when we, my husband and I first came to Washington many years ago, we went to watch the basketball team play, and there was water seeping up on the floor. Can you tell me what that was, or where we were?
SHIRLEY: It has been said, and I cannot give any proof to it, that somewhere under the Tin Tabernacle there was a spring that ran through the area in that particular part of town and the water did periodically seep up. I assume from the construction that had been done in the past that that must have been ratified or taken care of and eliminated. But those are all things that bring back memories, and of course it was not called the Tin Tabernacle because it was made of concrete, stone and brick. It was called the Tin Tabernacle because that’s just what it was. It was a Tin Tabernacle … better known probably as just a Tin Gym. But it had many many memories.
BIELSKI: Over the years . . . . And how many did you say there were that you’d been at GW?
SHIRLEY: I came to GW in 1931 and of course we can just do a little division or subtraction and now it’s ’89. And I have been active at the University as you well know for a long time. There was a span after I graduated. I was teaching at Alice Deal Junior High School and the late Bill Myers, God bless him, was in charge of the Physical Education majors. And Bill made it a point to send out his practice teachers to those of us from GW so we could credit, or rather get hours to come to school free to work on our Masters. Of course today I assume that has been changed. The District of Columbia did not permit supervisors of practice teachers to be paid, as they were in Maryland and Virginia. So the only remuneration we were able to receive from the University was courses which we could take. And Bill provided many of us the opportunity of getting these free courses so we could go to GW without charge, and as a consequence was able to get my masters degree from George Washington University.
Shortly after that, why, then I became somewhat inactive at GW, until Bob Faris, the athletic director who resigned or retired, rather, several years back. Bob was a good friend of mine, having played just after I left George Washington, and as athletic director he attempted to get many of us involved in the program. He did just that with yours truly, and from that time on I have been very active in the University and have been very pleased and it seemed as though appreciated my efforts. As you probably know I’m past president of the Colonials, past president of the Letterman’s club, past president of the Alumni Club, Alumni Association, I should say, have received the Achievement Award and the Alumni Award, so I have been very active in the University and also served as the national chairman for the Telethon for two straight years. So I haven’t allowed my interest to wane any as we go forward, been active in the Hall of Fame at George Washington, am a member of the Hall of Fame and now I’m chairman of the selection committee. So you see over all, for the past twenty-five or thirty years GW has been close to my heart and I’ve been working very hard for them
BIELSKI: Well now, I used to work with you from time to time in the Telethon, and that is really a difficult thing to do, to sit down by the hour and call people and ask them for money. Now what motivated you, because you motivated me to keep after it over the years, but what motivated you?
SHIRLEY: I believe it was just another opportunity to be of service to the University, and being somewhat of an extrovert myself I like people, I enjoy being with them, and conversing with them on the telephone. I think one of the things that I remember most vividly about the Telethon was when we went to New York City. We went to call the alumni in New York and hotel telephone . . . . Don De Julia was the representative from the University, a paid employee, and the calls at that time were fifty-cents apiece, and we just thought that was exorbitant and couldn’t be. So what each of did . . . we went down and got twenty dollars worth of dimes, went down to Grand Central Station, and basically locked up two telephone booths where we called for three or four hours just using dimes instead of fifty-cent pieces which we would have had to in the hotel. We get a great big kick out of that. We enjoyed it, we were productive and kind of the only different thing I think out of the usual procedure that is followed in telethons all over the country.
BIELSKI: What, do you ever, do you have anything in your mind that when you’re thinking, when you’re driving, or sitting alone, do you have any that you would like to have people remember you, something that you wish that they would associate with the name Dallas Shirley?
SHIRLEY: Well, from the point of view of George Washington University, I would like to be remembered as one who gave a great deal of his time and energy and I did not limit it just to basketball. I have always maintained with the Colonials that if you want the people in the University and in the community to support the athletic program, it is essential that you in turn support all of the programs in the University. And I think unfortunately many of those men who are active in athletics programs . . . alumni, etc. and who are on the Colonials think of just one phase of the University. And I feel that is unfortunate. And I have tried to divide my time and my interests and my dedication to the University by serving in various capacities which I just indicated to you a moment ago.
BIELSKI: Dallas, I know how many cups, how many plaques, how many ribbons, how many pictures and citations you have in your home. But some place in all of those, in that room, that trophy room of yours, there must be one that tugs most desperately at your heart. Tell me about that one. Would you?
SHIRLEY: Well, yes, I’d be happy to. You know, having refereed in over two- thousand basketball games, basically all over the world, I do have one or two that stand out. Particularly, I’m sure there’s the plaque that is awarded to the individuals when they are inducted into the Basketball Hall of Fame, which is in Springfield, Massachusetts. You know of course it was dedicated to James Naismith who was the founder of the game. Dr. Naismith was a Canadian with degrees in medicine, also in the ministry and was an educator. But the plaque that they give you at the time of induction is probably the highlight of all. As a matter of fact I have it in the most conspicuous part of the room where I have my plaques, and nice to know is that the University also receives the same copy of the plaque that I received, and you can find it as you go into the main lobby of the Smith Center. There’s one there for Red Auerbach, and then there’s one there for yours truly, and we’re one of the few universities to have two from the one school that are in the Hall of Fame. So I think that one stands out very very vividly.
And then secondly, is the two that I received from officiating in the Pan American games in Chicago in 1959, which of course carries all the countries in Pan America, North, South America and Central America, and then of course the one that I received from Rome, Italy, for officiating in the 1960 Olympic Games. I think one interesting thing of that may be, in that particular team, which many feel was the greatest team we ever had, we had such names that are familiar to all basketball fans as Oscar Robertson, we had Jerry West, and we also had [Jerry] Lucas. Now those three men were on a team, now the coach was Pete Newell, and he is in the Hall of Fame. The three players I just mentioned and I were inducted in the same time, so that gives us good representation from that particular team. Three players, the official, and the coach, but I guess one of the highlights of the games itself was the Russians, or should I say the Soviets, had never lost a basketball game to anyone other than the United States up until 1960. And in 1960 they were defeated by Brazil. First time they were ever beaten in the games, and I did have the honor that time of refereeing that game. You see, you are not permitted to officiate a game in which your country participates.
And that was a highlight of a game of officiating in a packed house, and then afterwards the ball got thrown around somewhere or another, and it was not a basketball. They did not play with a basketball in those days as we think of it today, the molded ball. They had more of less of a padded ball, what you or I would think of as a soccer ball. But anyway, kicked around back and forth, it wound up in my hands, I deflated it when I got into the dressing room, put it in my bag, and took it back, and it’s now in the Basketball Hall of Fame in Springfield, Massachusetts. So those are some highlights and those are some of the trophies and the plaques and so forth that I honor very highly
BIELSKI: Dallas, I don’t suppose that there would be anybody anywhere left in the United States that could give a more explicit and graphic picture of the game of basketball and how it has changed in the many ways of the style of playing and the court and so forth. Would you talk a little bit about that for us.
SHIRLEY: Well in 1991 we will celebrate the centennial of basketball on a worldwide basis. Every one of the teams, countries who participated in Olympics, which now totals better than 170 will all participate in the centennial in 1991. The game when it started of course was basically designed to provide an opportunity for a leisure time activity during the winter months. Because football, all outdoor sports, of course, just couldn’t do it. So Dr. Naismith invented basketball. The game has changed radically. When it started with thirteen rules and now there are ten. But I think one of the questions that’s asked so often is, when are you going to move the height of the basket? The basket was put at ten feet because the gymnasium had a track going around it in Springfield, and where you could nail the basket was ten feet from the floor. There’s nothing sacred about it. It’s not nailed in cement, but it is still ten feet high, and a lot of people of course are advocating moving it up and some of them say it should stay where it is. Personally I like it where it is. I think there’s something to tradition, and I believe that is one of the things that kind of makes basketball a little bit unique. But the basket was definitely a peach basket. As a matter of fact, the bottom was in the basket. You had to get on a ladder to get the ball out after a goal was scored. Of course times have marched on.
And today basketball is better than it has ever been. The players are better. The coaches are better. They are better trained and they’ve had better background. The officials, an indictment against my own era, are better than they ever were. And no question that the gymnasiums or arenas are far superior to anything most of us ever dreamed of. So the game has progressed along those lines.
Now the game itself, on the court has changed too radically in the last ten, fifteen, or twenty years. It doesn’t take us long to go back and remember when we had no such thing as a back court rule. There was no such thing as a three-second rule, staying in a three-second area for more than that time. The jump ball has been eliminated. At one time there was a jump ball after every single basket that was scored. Also at one time there was one player on the team who shot all foul shots. Regardless of who was fouled, this one shooter did all the foul shooting. Of course again in more modern times here now we have put in a clock, particularly that’s true in the colleges, if not the high schools. The 45-second clock. Some people, including yours truly, feel it’s a little bit too long. The girls have thirty seconds. International Olympics has thirty seconds, and the pros have twenty-four. Now I think twenty-four is too short. But by the same token I would like and hope to see the forty-five second gradually . . . . it has to be a gradual move down maybe to forty to thirty-five, and then down maybe to thirty where it would all be uniform. Now I just got off of the rules committee, the college rules committee after six years of service, and that is being discussed. However I don’t see it on the horizon as coming in over night. Next of course is the three-point play, that goes back to the idea that the little man is still in the ball game. And I think that is most desirable. The three-point play was put into effect for several reasons. One was to recognize the little fellow who could shot from outside, nineteen feet, nine inches from the basket. Secondly, it would cause the big man to come from under the basket and go out and play all around basketball. And in so doing of course it eliminated a lot of the rough stuff under the basket, which made it next to impossible to officiate for the poor official on the floor. It was getting somewhat like the NBA.
Now I had the pleasure of being on the original staff in the NBA in 1948. In those days it was rough, tough and nasty. As in two years later the league determined that an individual either had to be a college official or a pro official. Well it was very easy for me to be, as an educator, to go and work with the colleges. But the NBA too has changed a lot of rules and has brought it up to, not up to where we are, of course, I’m prejudiced, I know, I like the college game much better than the pro game. The high schools have come along the same way as we have. Another new feature in the game of recent date has been a coaching box, where the coaches can only go twenty-eight feet in front of the bench and no one else can get up. When they were getting up and acting like crazy men, they were really exciting the crowd, and made things very very difficult for all parties concerned. So that was another feature that has come into the game and I think all these things are for the good.
The game is in good shape. The rules committee, consisting of thirteen college men, study every year minor modifications for the coming year, 1989-90. For the average layman there’s no basic change. For the coaches and for the officials there are some minor changes which will require attention. But basketball is truly an American game. It’s a game which does more research than any other game. As a consequence, we know what’s going on. We’ve got the statistics to prove what we do is right and basically those of us who have been with the game a long time are very satisfied with the modern game. And surely, the NCAA is, because of the great amount of money they reap from the NCAA tournaments and particularly the final four. When you play in arena with fifty to sixty thousand people, and fill it up, and then have a waiting list for tickets, and you have to get your tickets before April 1 for the following year, you can see they are making some kind of money. It does present a problem, however, in various places. For instance, this coming year, in 1990, the game is going to be played in Denver. Denver only has a seating capacity of eighteen-thousand seats. Can you imagine the competition for trying to get tickets for that particular game, whereas last year in Seattle with over forty-thousand? I heard just recently that you send in your ticket money, and that one out of ten got a ticket for the coming year. So, it will be hectic in Denver. But the game is good. The game is good for the players. It’s good for the spectators, and all of us connected with it just plain love it.
BIELSKI: Dallas, of course we know that basketball was invented in the United States, and sometimes it seems that soccer, called football some places, is probably the most popular sport in the world. But how does basketball fit in to the world in general, as being accepted as particularly an indoor sport?
SHIRLEY: There must be something good about basketball for the countries, because it has just mushroomed throughout the entire world. If memory serves me right, I believe that when we had it in 1960, I think there were 107 nations participating. In the past year in which we played at Seoul there were better than 160. It is true that soccer is the most popular sport throughout the entire world. I had the pleasure of going to Tripoli, Libya as a sports specialist for a year, and when I arrived there they told me that soccer, although as you say they call it football, was number one, it was number two, it was number three, and then after that they played games. But again, it has increased in popularity throughout the country. Not long ago I had the opportunity of going to China as a sports specialist and talking to the people in China. And their enthusiasm was just absolutely unbelievable wanting the more knowledge of the game itself. And as a consequence of playing here and playing there and you know they should be getting better.
Someone was saying, well the Olympics are getting worse for the American teams. Well, I don’t believe that’s true. If we’re sending our best players, our best coaches, our best officials overseas to teach these persons, if they’re not improving, then I think we must be doing a very poor job. Though they are improving. I think interest was shown recently in the press when Danny Ferry, the young boy here from DeMatha who went to Duke, signed that contract in Italy for over two million dollars. I often see that another young man from the Celtics has just gone to move over and play with him. Now, when that kind of money is being spent you just have to realize that there’s going to be a lot of interest in the sport. They do play almost all of their games indoors, but there are still some of the third world countries that play out of doors. When I was working in Columbia, South America, and I was refereeing at that time, it was interesting in the national championships, they played out of doors on a dirt court. They had concrete stands but I think the thing that stood out in my mind the most was completely rimming the sidelines of the court were police guards about every ten feet around, and at the top of the stands which maybe ran ten rows high, there was a militia, all standing with their guns facing the hills. I didn’t think that was a particularly good place to be officiating, but we got through it without incident. But this was just a highlight. The interest and the spirit that has come with the game of basketball throughout the entire world and who knows where it will stop. I think it’s continuing to grow every single year.
BIELSKI: When you said the word growth, that just reminded me. Would you like to comment a little bit upon how tall the basketball players are becoming, and maybe there would be a game for people who are not that lanky?
SHIRLEY: Well I feel that a great many of the people who watch the game and all are just kind of astounded with the height of the players themselves. But we must remember that basketball is played all over the country, in the YMCAs, in the junior high schools, in the high schools. These particular types of ball players that we’re so used to seeing, they’re just not there. So there is a real opportunity for the game without having to be a giant. However I do know that the colleges of course and the pros put a great deal of value on the tall man. You just have to have him or you cannot win. Seven feet is now, is not unusual. But again, going back to the thirties, I can recall at that time that six feet, six feet, one inch, was a tall man. Six feet, four inches was a giant. And now of course six feet, four inches has a hard time getting by with any degree of success. As to whether or not we should move the basket up, as I’ve indicated before, no, I don’t necessarily believe. There’s been some interest, I think, advanced since the three-point play has gone in for the back court man. Why not make the dunk one point? Because the only thing he’s got . . . the skill is not there. The good lord just made him taller. Or else his mother put a lot of water in his hair and made him grow. But the fact remains that the big man, or course, does get all the publicity. He does get all of the attention, and of course he gets the money.
But I don’t think that we have to worry about another game for the little man. The little man, you see my point is that participating in sports of any nature, you learn many lessons. And these lessons can be transferred into later life. And everybody is not going to be a professional. So when you get through playing your particular high school or college, be thankful you’ve enjoyed it and profit from the lessons that you’ve learned. I get a little bit disturbed with some of the parents who early in life are training their kid at eight, ten, twelve years old, they’re going to be NBA stars. And the number . . . many are called but very few are chosen. I just came back from Holy Cross where I conducted a basketball referees school, and of course, to have a school, you got to have the players, and there were about 480 kids there, ranging from seven years old, they were not as big as the basketball in some cases, up to of course you have men who were just getting ready to graduate from high school. Now I just don’t like to see these little kids being narrowed down and expected to be a great basketball player at the age of seven or eight. Plus the fact I think they’re missing so many other things in life that a regular camp of swimming and archery and Indian lore and all that sort of thing . . . . But it, there are a lot of parents who are all going to count on their youngsters being in the NFL or the NBA and it’s just not going to be that way. So let’s learn and profit from what we can do and be thankful.
BIELSKI: You refer to yourself as an educator professionally and certainly you have been a remarkable one. And now that you have reached a stage in life where you can make some observations and as you know it seems that universities are passing through rather grim times now, there isn’t very much in the public relations that you find in the media that’s complimentary to the efforts that are going on on campuses. Do you have some insights, some opinions that you could express now on any area of this subject?
SHIRLEY: In the beginning, I very strongly feel that any athletic program has to be a part of the total educational program within the school or the university. To set one aside I think then places the emphasis in the wrong spot. If the athletics does not contribute to the overall program of the school, then I think it’s very difficult to justify. Now I do also believe that the athletic programs in the most of the universities and colleges and high schools are basically responsible for getting the news of the university to the public. Which I think here is a condemnation to an extent of the P.R. people, or the persons responsible for news releases, etc. to the press are not doing possibly the best job that they can. If it were not for the sport pages where all the universities and high schools get so much ink, many of the schools would be unknown even in their own community, let alone on a national basis.
So it seems to me that the university media department has an obligation to constantly flood the news media, not only the newspapers but also the magazines, radio, television, and all other forms of media. If they don’t do it I’m afraid we’re falling down on the job. But again I feel maybe more is being done than we are aware of, and that the newspaper people and the radio people are not picking it up. Because a lot of the things that we do are not sensational. They’re not going to be causing headlines. You may find them back on page eight or the last page in the last column. But you get the dopes and the alcoholic drivers. There are the things, the murders, those are the ones that seem to be getting all the attention. Become a bum and you get your name and your picture in the paper. A good steady young person going through school doing a good job, you never hear of him. I think it’s also an indictment against the schools. We always know the outstanding people. We always know the characters, but that big group in the middle we so often do not know or become familiar with. And that I think is too bad on the part of the teacher, professor, the principal, whomever it may be. So, do not the people who run the publicity departments have a challenge before them to try to educate, if it’s possible, those who are actually putting the ink in the newspapers to realize what is there to advertise and give a challenge to those young people who are coming along? What was the headline in the paper just today? “Nineteen-year old breaks out of Lorton.” Now, you know, basically who cares about that except the law enforcing people? But that’s headlines. Do you see anything about the young person who went through school with all A’s, who contributed this much to the community? You don’t find those things. Whether or not this is a challenge that cannot be met, I don’t know. But I again say, philosophically, that we have an opportunity, and thank goodness for the sport pages where it does promote our universities, or if not, we would really be in a bind.
BIELSKI: I think we need to hear your opinions on athletes and scholarship and passing grades and curriculum and so forth.
SHIRLEY: Well, things have changed, obviously. But there were some things you, back in our time. I remember one course that we took where we met twice a year and we all got passing grades, and those sort of things happened periodically everywhere. But today it has just become rampant. When you look at the various things that have happened at the universities, paying off fathers to send his kids to school. Every day in the paper if you read the sports pages you’ll find some sportsman, some athlete who has been in court for marijuana or dope or alcohol. These things of course, I don’t know whether people think that’s the thing to do or not. Maybe it’s the money that they’re getting. When you see the amount of money that the individuals are getting for participating in athletics it’s just astounding. For instance, two incidents come to my mind. Number one, one of “character,” and I use that word in quotes, has six cars in his garage. Now I’ve always felt you can always drive one at a time. Another one wanted a contract, and I don’t care how much money I make, so long as I’m making a hundred dollars more than the top players. Now I often wonder, what are they going to do? How is this money used? And I quess we all are guilty because we’re the ones who really back these programs. We listen to it on the tube, watch it on the tube, we go to the game and pay exorbitant prices, so as a consequence the players say the money is there. “Pay me.”
But the bad feature is when they get it, they don’t know what to do with it. Just the other evening we were talking with a gentleman who said, “well, when this character gets through his playing days, he’ll probably wind up bankrupt, because he doesn’t know what’s he’s done with money.“ And I believe that’s very very true. When you’ve just got to get cars and cars and gals and gals and, you know, you just, you’ve lost the true sense of what I think is being an adult in America. An American adult. And where it’s going to stop, I think only the good referee upstairs knows. But I don’t believe that we as educators and people who love sports can give up. I think we’ve constantly got to be on a vigil to do the best that we possibly can. And we do need help.
BIELSKI: Dallas, if you were recruiting for a basketball team just now, what would you keep in the back of your mind as the things that would be prerequisites for a young man to come to George Washington University to play basketball?
SHIRLEY: Well, when you narrow it down to George Washington University, of course we are very fortunate in having a clean slate for a long time, so far. What tomorrow will bring, goodness knows. But if you are recruiting in general, I think what would be in the back of my head may be entirely different from what may come out of my lips. As the President said, “Read my lips.” But what I’m indicating here is that when we have put pressure on the coaches to win and the coach is the head man, if he doesn’t win, he goes, and so do his assistants. Now, I think this is what’s encouraging some of our recruiters to bend over backwards and do the wrong thing. You’ve go to win to survive and that is bad. I’ve heard many coaches say that “when I have a losing season I work harder, I coach better,” but he said “I’m going to lose my job.” I think what we have to do, we would like to do, is to find a young man who comes from a good home, whose parents are with him all the way, who is desirous of getting an education, not just these fake courses in clay or crayon drawing, etc., who wants a good education, and then who is morally a good boy or girl and with that way we can work with them.
I think it’s wonderful that we’re having now academic advisors in the universities for the athletes. They do need a little extra time, only I think because of the fact that we’ve taken so much of their time in practice, that is, being able to, they’re losing it from the opportunity of study. So we are giving them that help, and I think that’s desirable. But if a kid can’t talk, if he can’t speak, if he can’t read, and we’ve got any number of instances that indicate that, why is he there in the first place? A lot of people are objecting to Proposition 48. I think 48 is great. As a matter of fact I personally am in favor of Proposition 42, because I think if a youngster cannot go to school and profit from it, I don’t care how good his athletic abilities are, he shouldn’t be in the school. And sooner or later, probably, the American public will wake up to this. But the present time, for instance, you ask a young man, “Would you like to come to school X?” And what will he ask you? “How many times are we on the tube?” That’s what he wants to know. How many time is he on the tube . . . not about the academic standing of the school, but how many times on the tube, how much can I get for my laundry, and question after question along those lines, never taking a moment to think about whether or not he’s going to get a good education and to prepare him for the life after his days are through in athletics. It’s a sad state of affairs, but we can’t give up.
BIELSKI: Dallas, if you were recruiting a young man to play basketball, what do you think you should offer him? What are the basic items that he can hope to receive from a university? Now, I’m thinking about books and tuition and, how much, can he, do you think is right for him to have for what he’s doing in return for the university?
SHIRLEY: First, let me say I do not believe that a player should be paid. And of course there are a lot of people who advocate that . . . all the money they bring to the universities, they should be paid. I do not. What they do get, I think they’re paid very beautifully with the tuition, books, room and board. And when you stop and figure today how much that actually would cost the parent to send a youngster and get all those things, it is a pretty pretty large figure. Now, whether or not laundry and those things, they’re constantly being reviewed by the NCAA committee as to determine how much they should give the youngsters for laundry and that type of things. But to me, tuition, books, lodging and food, and laundry . . . I would be very happy to see them have laundry free, is certainly enough to balance for what they are giving the university. I think it’s good pay, and to pay them, to me, is just absolutely wrong, and I hope we never live to see it.
(End of Interview)
See also: Shirley, J. Dallas
For more information about GW history
Contact:
Special Collections Research Center [1]
The Melvin Gelman Library [2]
The George Washington University [3]
2130 H Street, NW Suite 704
Washington, DC 20052
202-994-7549
mailto:archives@gwu.edu
Please send us your questions and comments about the encyclopedia.
This site is maintained by the Special Collections Research Center and the Web Development Group.
